PART 2

[Fri 6 Oct, 00:06]
Gumly Gumly Time
(GMT +10)

11. Re: self-defence

I've had some experience with several Martial Arts including Wing Chun Kung Fu, which is supposed to have been developed by a Shaolin nun as a defense against rape and attack. I've also trained in Judo and Jujitsu with a guy who is a police officer, and balck belt. In theory, all of the various styles of Martial Arts have their merits, as well as cons. For street confrontations, many of the flashy kicks and movements learned in a class room setting just are not practical. And you never know what the OTHER guy knows! I know many 'Martial Artists' who go their asses kicked in street or bar fights because the other guy saw what was coming! An experienced street fighter can be formidable.

I think, for someone who doesn't have a lot of time to invest learning a specific system, self defense courses are a good bet. Scenario training is great, because you can see how what you are learning works in actual situations. Judo and Ju Jitsu I think are especially good for women because it doesn't matter what size you are. Many of the joint locking techniques are fairly simple to learn, but the key is to practice, practice until you are very comfortable.

You might try asking your local police station to suggest a program or course.

(The stuff I learned from my cop friend are techniques he has used many times and found to be very effective in the street. I used one neat little poke and push to a specific spot on the throat to get a couple of really pushy touts in Inda out of my face. By adjusting the amount of force, I didn't have to hurt anyone, but sure made them uncomfortable - and they got away from me real fast!)

BTW - Awareness is the first step in self defense!

---

Anonymous

[Fri 6 Oct, 07:02]
Gumly Gumly Time
(GMT +10)

12. Re: self-defence

For #10, if you do consider getting a gun, not only should you take a safety class (requirement in some states), but also a hadgunning course. Combat handgunning is a martial art in itself. For some reason, some people that I talk to think the handgun will magically (all by itself) help you in time of trouble. Whether it's empty hands or using weapons, YOU are the one that has to WAKE UP and DO IT! Someone once asked me, "Why should I study self defence - I know how to kick someone in the balls, and I know how to poke someone in the eyes"? My answer is, if someone just stood there, yes, you could do anything you want and even the silliest tactics would work. Part of what you learn is how to set the guy up for your tactic (which might mean pushing the guy out of the way and running like hell, or acting like a submissive little coward, to make him drop his guard a little - then coming on like a psycho berserker). Another thing to think about is to be able to actually do what you know how to do. Fear is the handcuffs that bind you. It's easy to say "I'll gouge his eyes out", and physically you could do it, but how many of us are mentally capable of gouging someone's eyes out. Like #9, I've seen black belts "freeze", they knew what to do, but could not do it. I also know a girl who's studied kickboxing for a while and could hold her own against some of the guys. Then one night she was attacked - and from what she told me "all of her training went out the window". She thought being attacked, was going to be like a kickboxing match - where you can get into a stance, and it's going to be like a "duel". Every stance (whether you're sitting or lying down) is a fighting stance. Are you prepared for war while sitting in your car, or in a phone booth - you can't get into a traditional stance there. Like what was said in previous posts, there's lots of benefits from martial arts - meditation, fitness, etc... - but REAL self defense is another ANIMAL.

---

Girl_Interupted

[Sat 7 Oct, 01:13]
Gumly Gumly Time
(GMT +10)

13. Re: self-defence

#12 I grew up with a father who was very into shotgunning and did a fair amount of trap shooting in my youth but regarding your advice I of course would never buy a handgun without going through a formal training program. The real problem with the gun is are you ready to use it and if yes what if you end up a little too ready to use it and end up shooting a innocent person. It is a real hard decision.

I did like your story about the kick boxing girl who was attacked on the street and all the training went out the window. I think this happens a lot more than people teaching martial arts really like to admit.

Smoker is right where the best use for a self defence class is most likely going to be in doors with someone you know. The use of martial arts on the street is just not a practical plan.

The big problem is how do you get a permit of carry a gun as a traveller. At the end of the day all you really have is mace or pepperspray.

---

Anonymous

[Sat 7 Oct, 11:33]
Gumly Gumly Time
(GMT +10)

14. Re: self-defence

Smoker:

Great posts. I'm also a Thailand resident. I'm an ex-aikido-ist and have been doing Muay Thai for five years in Bangkok.

Ladies:

Another thing ladies might be interested in is pepper spray. I think if you can't run away for some reason, pepper spray ia a very effective means of self-defense. You spary it in the attckers eyes and this immobilizes them without causing permanent damage.

---

CBee

[Sun 8 Oct, 03:28]

Gumly Gumly Time

(GMT +10)

15. Self-Defense Classes Work

And weighing in for tried & true self-defense programs....A GOOD (please note emphasis) self-defense class WILL help you in a street fight, will help defend yourself against a "determined" (whatever that means) attacker and will boost your coinfidence, empower you and doesn't take ten years to learn and a lifetime to master (like some martial arts).

A good self defense class will teach you the psychological and verbal skills to avoid and de-escalate threatening situations, give you tools to deal with sexual harrasment, stree harrasment, date rape and more; a good program can do this in eight weeks. To boot, a good class will teach you to kick ass without weapons like pepper spray (illegal to take on international flights anyway).

There are many terrific programs out there and you should find one to fit your needs: classes for bicultural/bilibgual communities, programs specifically for women (highly recommended), classes for survivors, etc. Taking one of these classes is an act of self-care, healing & preservation and I encourage anyone even remotely interested in self-defense to check out what classes are offered where you live, see if you can sit in on one, attend a open house or see a demnonstration before deciding to sign-up. As the ad goes, just do it!

---

Anonymous

[Sun 8 Oct, 11:43]
Gumly Gumly Time
(GMT +10)

16. Re: self-defence

Pepper spray is illegal to carry on international flights (as well as local fights) and is also illegal in certain, but by no means all, jurisdictions.

However, once your plane lands it can usually be bought at a specialty shop. Pepper spray is used by almost all police departments in the USA because it is so effective.

I agree that self defense classes are good for your confidence and may teach you a few worthwhile things. Verbal skills, avoidance are probably the most important. Once the situation has gone beyond the point of no return, things are different.

I am large muscular male and have been "jumped", been in street fights and now study muay thai (I am the ex-aikidoist posting above.) Unfortunately, no matter how good you are at martial arts, it is almost impossible to overcome someone who is much larger and heavier than you. "Kicking in the balls" does not usually work, because it is difficult to kick in the precise location. More than likely you'll further enrage your attacker.

Self confidence is good and martial arts classes are a good way to build camraderie and learn some useful skills such as focus, coordination and greater physical strength, agilty, etc. But in real life, for self defense, look at what cops use. Short of a gun, they use pepper spray.

---

Anonymous

[Mon 9 Oct, 02:48]
Gumly Gumly Time
(GMT +10)

17. Re: self-defence

This is a great dialogue and to keep it going, I'd just like to comment on the above statement that overcoming someone stronger and heavier than you is nearly impossible....this is not true and does a disservice to anyone that has successfully done it and erroneously plants the fear in some women that they'll never be able to defend themselves (as a matter of fact, one of the best ground fighters in my first self-defense class was a woman not much over 5 feet tall). FOr example, it only takes 14 pounds of pressure to break a kneecap - ANY kneecap, it doesn't matter the size of the attacker. Yes, it's all about placement (you don't just go off on a kneecap), but women can learn how to place that kick effectively. Also, eyes and throat are vulnerable points in anyone, no matter their size. Yes, you have to learn how to stun or diable an attacker long enough so you can get away, but there are PROVEN techniques that women can learn to do this. And yes, a kick to the groin, when placed correctly, is extremely effective. What most people don't realize is that a groin kick is one that you use when your attacker is close enough to kiss you: a technique that requires you actually grab him/her (yes, it works against women too) by the shoulders to get purchase and thrust up with the meat of your thigh, just above the knee. It's not a kick at all really, but really will work if done correctly. OK, that's my two cents. Thanks for reading

---

Joninbangkok

[Mon 9 Oct, 12:59]

Gumly Gumly Time

(GMT +10)

18. Re: self-defence

Okay I'm the same poster, Ex-Aikido-ist and currently do muay Thai. By "doing" I mean I practice daily, go to my Muay Club twice a week (see may web page: www.members.tripod.com/jittisgym).

Many of my friends fight professionally and I frequently go to matches. I do not fight professionally because I work a 50 hour week and do not have sufficient time for training and I also fear serious lifelong injury. I'm also getting too old.

I have seen time and time again great martial artists attempt to go up against someone significantly larger who is less skilled with disastrous results.

Yes, in Ultimate fighting we have seen smaller opponents such as Gracie conquer much larger opponents such as "Kimo" (Does anyone remember this match?) But these are the exceptions to the general rule. Gracie has been training his whole life. And Ultimate fighting is still not street fighting, it still has rules.

There is reason why in virtually every serious martial art/sport there are weight categories. Judo/Wrestling/Boxing/Muay Thai all recognize that mass, weight and size have a significant effect on a fighters ability.

I think that, yes, martial arts skills can make up for a size and weight disparity up to a point. What that point is will vary. However, there is far far too much "magic" imputed to martial arts, and I don't want to name specific arts, but some of them are just crap mixed with mysticism.

However, what I would advise my daughter, my wife, my close friend is, if you want to learn martial arts, you have to study regularly, a 3 month course will not do it because your reactions have to be reflex and automatic. Now the 3 month course might teach some really good stuff, such as avoidance, strategies, self confidence, etc. But for fighting skills (as opposed to situational strategies) you need way more than a short course.

And, if you don't have the time or patience and are looking for a simple effective way to defend yourself (when you can't run away--running is always the best option), get yourself some pepper spray, practice spraying it. Also, go ahead and take the self defense class but I would hope the instructor would understand and teach the limitations of what was being taught, along with the benefits. I think a self defense class should at least mention pepper spray.

Go to a Muay Thai match, and watch how many knee caps get broken by professionally trained fighters. I have seen a lot of injurys, but I have never seen a broken kneecap. Plenty of torn ligaments and two broken legs, yes. Knee caps, no. In streetfights, I have had my ears boxed and been kicked in the balls and neither technique worked. Pepper spray almost always works, except if you're spraying against the wind or the attacker's wearing glasses. He will be in so much pain that he will be writhing and rolling on the ground or running around in circles. Finished. No fuss No muss. No sweaty work out clothes to clean up.

---

Smoker

[Mon 9 Oct, 15:26]

Gumly Gumly Time

(GMT +10)

19. Re: self-defence

Got to go with poster #18 on the bigger and stronger. Even the world champion western boxer will admit to have a chance against even a journey man boxer is a significant heavier weight class he would have to muscle up and increase his weight out of his regular class. This is universally true in all Martial Arts from western boxing to Judo.

I worked for Shell Oil on the oil tankers during the summers of high school and through university and of course going ashore with high strung sailors saw a lot of bar fights and got involved in a few myself. With out exception the bigger man in a duel was where to put the money unless the smaller guy was smart enough to swing while holding a beer bottle or chair etc. In group fights the weight factor is less but still important.

I know poster #17 one of the best ground fighters in your class was under 5 foot but that is just in class. As another poster related a woman kick boxer who could hold her own against men in class but when attacked on the street forgot all her training and folded. This happens all the time to Martial Artists both big and small and male and female. They think street fighting is going to be a duel like in class or in the movies where there is all this dialogue like ready, set, go before a fight. In reality usually there is very little indication that a fight is going to happen until the first punch. It is very rare outside of people that have trained on a regular basis at full contract that anyone is going to recover from that first surprise punch to use what ever their martial art is to successfully defend themselves.

I don't know anything about what they are teaching in the classical woman's self defence class but I almost feel that looking confident etc is ok but if it has not worked and you are sure you are going to have a physical confrontation a good tactic is look like you are folding, whimper etc and draw the attacker in with the idea that you have already given up and looking to grap your breasts and not punch you into submission. Then you will get in the first punch, jab, pepperspray, baton across the temple etc. In 90% of the time in fights between males who ever lands the first punch wins and I would guess the same for women attacked by males. I really do believe the weapon is the great equalizer and like the poster before me although I have no experience using it if pepper spray is used by the cops it must be pretty effective.

Poster #7 you have some valid points but remember your five foot woman only demonstrated her skills in class and not for real on the street. What I would be interested in hearing about is actual street encounters outlining where women who had Martial Arts and self defence class training used their skills to escape the attacker. I don't really think there are a lot of success stories in this area.

As I said in my earlier post the place where I think self defence classes would have the most use is in doors where the woman knows her attacker and does not have the "right" option of running. This is where the woman like a bar fighter should give no warning or indication that she is going to take the violence option and just make sure she gets in the first strike holding a lamp or large ash tray etc.

Just had a thought, as a woman I would never carry a folding umbrella but pick put a nice heavy one with a strong solid shaft and sharpen the point and then paint it black to disguise the sharp point. Now you have a practical decent weapon to use. A woman's self defence class on "Umbrella Fencing" makes a lot more sense to me than a class on standard hand to hand defence. Also don't forget the pepper spray to hit the attacker with while he is trying to stop the blood from spurting out of the hole you put in him with your umbrella.

Anyway sorry to be such a sceptic on the success of a small woman defending her self against a big attacker but I'm just trying to be realistic.

Hasta la Vista, smoker

---

Anonymous

[Tue 10 Oct, 01:58]
Gumly Gumly Time
(GMT +10)

20. Re: self-defence

This is an interesting question indeed. I read all the previous responses with great interest.

I'm a woman, quite small and slim. I started to take a self defense course in my first year at uni, that was about 7 years ago. I started to like Martial Arts and keep doing it ever since - with workouts at least three times a week.

I would love to be able to say that now I feel completely safe when I walk down dark streets at night. I am certainly not. It would be a lie to say that I can easily knock out a man who is much stronger than myself. I can see this problem everyday at my workouts. I haven't got much of a chance if I fight against a much heavier person who's got the same level (I'm a brown belt), which sometimes can be kind of frustrating. BUT: If I fight against a heavy white belt- no matter what size - I've got very good chances to win the fight. And I don't think many rapists expect me to place a good kick.

This means that I always have to be way better than the agressor to compensate my disadvantage in physical strength and weight. Forunately, my long-term training partner is a man, one feet taller than myself. if you only do workouts with women of your size, you might get the impression that it's all pretty easy. It's not.

Some effective techniques are easy to learn (like kicking the agressor's knee for example ­ no one got many muscles there, so men don't have a considerable advantage). But they need to get practised again and again to use them efficiently. A self defence course can give you confidence though.

Concerning myself, if I should ever get in the situation of being attacked, I think I've got a good chance to get out of it. I've learned so many different techniques, practised kicks and punches again and again and again. I just hope doing the right thing would be a reflex then. But once you haven't been in the situation you can't say for sure how you'll react. And that's the point: having to use your skills in a street fight is something different from using them in the gym.

I might just as well do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

This is why I'm saying that I don't walk down the streets at night feeling perfectly safe.

Seven years of martial arts has given me the confidence that I do have a chance in case of an attack, that I am not necessarily a helpless victim.

Nothing more but nothing less either.

 CONTINUE

Our Sponsors

Thailand Law Forum	Law Firm and Business Consultants